On May 10, 2008, in Hyderabad, one of the largest ever Christian Muslim debate was held. Bro. Jerry was the Christian speaker (From Sakshi: An Apologetics Network in India) and Bro. Imran (Founder President, IREF and International Islamic Scholar) was the Muslim speaker. The topic of debate was- Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad: Separating Falsehood from Truth. Following is the transcript of the rebuttal by Bro. Imran.
Sakshi Note: Greetings in Arabic is not transliterated here.
Say to him,” Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished”. For falsehood is bound to perish”. It will perish. See, look at his presentation. Very good. Very appealing to everybody.
Mimics Jerry.. Say” what is the meaning of the word begotten son of God”
And he wants me to remember it. He is reading at 100 miles per hour and he wants me to remember it. See, I did the job. I prepared 10 questions, went to him. I said,” Please take it and read it.” He gave 50 minutes talk and 21 questions. Did you count it when you were giving? I said, ten. I put it in paper, very organized and gave it to you. He said “I can answer all of them.” 15 minutes. He did not even touch 1 of them. He did not even touch 1 of them. Then he quoted the Quran. He said there are.
He wants us to read this entire book in 15 minutes. We don’t have any unholy spirit over us, and he said that I did not prove that Jesus is not divine. Why should I do it when you have done that job already? You never proved it. You already made the job easy. You did not prove that Jesus is divine. I did not touch it. The remaining tips, bits and pieces, I just joined to make it decorative.
And he said, he was insulted because I said Tom and Jerry. By God, Allah is insulted more if I say you are a dog or a cat, you get insulted. If I say, you are Tom the mouse, you are insulted. But when you say Allah is human, Allah is insulted more.
(Sakshi comment: After giving an entire presentation showing that Allah of the Quran has nothing to do with the True God of the true Biblical prophets, Bro. Imran still thinks that Christians consider Jesus as the son or incarnation of Allah of the Quran- his god. Can Bro. Imran understand anything? Bro. Imran, do not worry. We will never insult the True God Jesus Christ by saying that He is Allah of the Quran. Allah by nature is not True God).
I can also shout like this and I have the oratory skill. But that does not mean that you have won the debate.
Then he brought some paper, big chart, and see, copycat. Sheik Deedat showed it, Zakir Naik showed it, I showed it. So he thought first time, first Christian to show it. Did anyone understand what was that chart. Nobody! That was just his presentation. He has done his masters in public speaking and communications, I suppose.
Then he said, I said Quran is miracle of miracles. It is being recorded. I never said that. You said it and you put it on me to quote it. You said it. I never said. In my entire talk, I never quoted that. Quran is not preserved and he gave a website address. He said on debate.org, all the 101 contradictions have been answered.
What about the 50000 errors that your own Christian community brought out in the Bible. Not a Muslim! Jehovah Witness. Jehovah Witness, they believe that Jesus is God, equal to God and Son of God. There was a survey published in England and what was the survey. It was in the Time magazine, dated 25June 1984 and the survey said 31 out of 39 Anglican bishops of England do not believe that Jesus should be worshipped as God. Why should I waste my time disproving Jesus is God. Your community is doing it for me. You are doing it in your entire talk. I gave you 10 questions. I just said prove where did Jesus say that and you see, what was the question.
What is the meaning of the word “begotten Son of God”? He is cheating all of you. Do you know? He spoke in his speech “begotten Son of God”. Where was it? John 3:16 says God gave His only begotten Son of God. The same John3:16 in revised standard edition, the word “begotten” has been thrown out. No more there! My second question on the paper was “what is the difference between Jesus being called begotten son of God in John 3:16 and David being called as begotten son?” What did he say? Mr. Imran can quote from the Book of Psalms that David is also referred to as Son of God. He is not referred to as son of God. He is referred to as begotten son of God and the word begotten is still there. For Jesus, it has been thrown out. For Jesus, it has been thrown out. What does begotten mean?
(Sakshi comment: Please check the reference Jerry quoted in his presentation. It was Psalms 82 and not Psalms 2).
My third question was “Is Jesus the firstborn?” they say Jesus is the firstborn Son of God, or only Son of God. If you read the book of Exodus chapter 4 verse 22, it says “Israel is My firstborn”. If you read the book of Jeremiah chapter 31 verse 9, it says “Ephraim is My firstborn”.
(Sakshi: Please read the question and answer session where Jerry answered this. Firstborn in what sense is the question. Preeminence or literal. If preeminence, Israel can have preeminence over other nations but Jesus has preeminence over creation).
If you read the book of Psalms chapter 2 verse 7, it says “This day I have begotten you”. To whom? David! David was 40 years old when he was begotten. Then you see, he cheated all of you again. Where? He said, the moment Jesus was born, he started His ministry. And it took 40 years for Mohammed. You are wrong! The Bible Gospel of Luke chapter 2 verse 38 says it was at the age of 30 years that He started His ministry.
(Sakshi: Did Jerry say from the Holy Bible or Quran? If Jerry has to quote the Holy Bible, he can quote about Jesus being worshipped from his very birth itself Matthew 2:11).
I am asking, what was Jesus doing for 30 years as God incarnate on earth.
He again said I am quoting history wrong. You are quoting it wrong to the people. You are misquoting. You check your facts again. You said Constantine did not do it. I will give you the history. Constantine, he initially supported trinity. Later he reversed back to it when he died. It was in 381 it was established.
But, Theodosius, the follower of Constantine, I was not wrong because Constantine, in 385 Christian era supported Trinity, before his death in 38, he again retreated. He said, “I will not support Trinity”. So what did he do? He said “Correct yourself”. You Correct Yourself! And give honest information to the people.
And he said, in the entire debate, if you say like this, you can’t win it. I have not come to win or loose, Sir. I have come to make you a Muslim like Jesus Christ (PBUH). And the Book, the one which he gave. There are one billion books written. I can bring a library like this for you. Let us be limited to the 50 minutes. You yourself know nobody ca read an entire book and the way you are quoting. See, he said,” the Quran is a miracle that is what we say”.
Arae, Sir, you are quoting a Bible that has so many errors. How can I believe this statement or any statement of the Bible to be true? 50000 errors published Jehovah Witness published it. Jesus, you pronounced the name of the word wrong. He didn’t give the answer, the language of Jesus. 15 minutes. He didn’t give it. About the temptation of the devil, he agreed that Jesus was tempted by the devil. He agreed to it. But you see blindness and dogma. Even if Jesus was tempted, it is not that way. You please believe. Jesus is referred as the Son of God in the Bible. How many times, you know in the NT? 83 times. And as Son of God, He is mentioned only 17 times. And these 17 times, it is mentioned are very less compared to 83 times.
(Sakshi Comment: What is the argument here???)
There are many others who are mentioned as sons of God. Book of Genesis chapter 6 verse 2 and 4: the sons of God married the daughters of men.” All of us are sons of God. Book of Romans chapter 8 verse 14 says “whosoever is led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God, are the children of God.” There are sons by tons in the Bible, to God. Why only specifically Jesus? He is nowhere referred in a separate manner.
(Sakshi: Already answered in the presentation)
And he said from the Quran, he can prove me that Jesus is very highly honored. Why do you want to shout like this? I already said we revere Jesus holy and great. When did I reject that? What did you try to prove? So that was a good way to present to the people. Even if you win an argument with Tom, Dick and Jerry or any Abdullah, Abdurahman or Yusuf that does not mean Islam is wrong. That person can be weak. Islam still cannot be wrong.
After a great effort on Sakshi website, he said, on the Sakshi website, “I have put the answers”. Daily I used to check it. There is not a single answer in it. Except the debate he had earlier, and there what he did, you know? He cheated the Muslim brother there. How? In the debate, he has pu
t only the questions he has given. He didn’t put the answers of the Muslim brother there.
Then they are very proud of a person called Anis Shorrosh, an Arab Christian and that Arab Christian, he gave an answer to the Glorious Quran and he wrote a book,” Al Furqan Al haq”. This is the base.
(Sakshi comment: What is the point here? Bro. Imran showed some pictures at this point. We do not have any of the pictures that he showed. Here is the website that you can read True Furqan http://www.islam-exposed.org/furqan/contents.html)
He said he wants to challenge me for the debate. You arrange a similar kind of debate. I am ready for that challenge. Not by us. Not to be organized by us. You organize same platform, same stage. Do it the same way we have done it. I am ready for the Debate. I don’t want to come in those closed room meetings, closed rooms! Why? See nobody is exposed there. Nobody is exposed. And what does he want me to prove that Jesus. He quoted Surah 5:75 and in 72 also Allah says,” Whosoever says Allah is Christ Jesus, Son of Mary, they blaspheme.”
“O you children of Israel, worship Allah as my God and your God, Whoever associates any partner with Allah, Allah will make haram upon them. His abode will be hell fire. There they will not find any protectors for them.” This is what Allah said in the Quran. He said I might quote that Jesus ate. I want to ask in the entire life if Jesus ate, did He never attend the call of nature too. This is what he wanted to say. Why are you making your own mockery? If Jesus ate, naturally, He will have to attend the nature’s call also.
Similarly, apart from that Gospel of Luke chapter 2 verse 31-35, Jesus was circumcised.
Is God circumcised? And if Jesus is circumcised, Sir, Then according to you, Jesus is holy and equal to God. Where is that portion thrown away? Jesus should be holy.
See, I didn’t abuse. These are very cunning ways. You see, what they did? They went to the police department, “we want security.” They are giving sympathy like this. In his statement, you are abusing. So any common person when he hears,” why Imran, you should not speak like this.” Watch him. He has been abusing the Quran throughout his speech. Alright, he has come or a debate. Debate is an argument. In an argument, you have all the right to present your academics. I have all the right to present my academics. You presented in you way. I present it in my way. What is the abuse there? I am quoting and quoting. I am not a hafiz at Bible. Why should I become a hafiz at Bible when no Christian dared to become till now. But still I am better than you. At least I memorized these verses, which you didn’t do. And you kept the paper and misquoted. He said, “I am presenting it”.
And about Mohammad (saaw), I ask the Christian scholars,”Your Bible, does it speak about the future?” So they say, it speaks everything about future. It speaks everything about future. What does it say about Mohammad (saaw)? Nothing? A great personality! Encyclopedia Britannica is saying greatest person on earth and the Bible doesn’t speak about anything. I say it is not like that. Sir, you are not disclosing it to the people. In the Songs of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16, the name of Muhammad (saaw) is mentioned in the Bible. It says Mohammadim”. Why Mohammaddim?
Any person who understands Hebrew will understand “IM” in Hebrew language is added for respect. “Eloh” is the name for “Elah”. Elohim, they say in Hebrew language. Elohim, meaning, the God. Mohammadim, with respect. What did they do in the English translation? They translated the name. Have you heard that proper nouns are translated? If somebody’s name is Mr. Bush, can I translate in Hindi and say Mr. Jaani? They translated the name of Mohammad.
(Sakshi comment: We are surprised that after baselessly making allegations against the Holy Bible, 101 contradictions and fifty thousand errors, Bro. Imran has to fall at the feet of the Holy Bible to make any case for the messengerhood of Muhammad. But it does not work. You will see Bro. Jerry refuting this and Bro. Imran saying “I only said the name Muhammad (saaw) comes in the Bible. I didn’t say there it is mentioned as prophet.” We can have a hearty laugh now. Remember if the Holy Bible is not reliable, then Bro. Imran can never verify the claims of Muhammad. Bro.Imran has no option. He has to fall at the feet of the Holy Word. Read Jerry’s presentation)
I have brought the photocopies of the Quran preserved. The difference he showed; See, the problem with him is he doesn’t know Arabic at all. Without knowing Arabic, he is talking about Quran. So what will happen? It is like a blind person, a born blind person trying to explain colors to the people.”This is yellow, this is red”. He is born blind!
(Sakshi comment: We do not which photocopy he is showing?
According to Arabic grammar, Sir, if you don’t know, now you learn it. According to Arabic grammar, if it is specified, then it fits only to that. Even afterwards, it is generalized. Quran said in Surah 3 ayats 50-55, that Isa is sent only for Bani-Israel. After that, in the Quran, it is said He is sent for Annas, it means He has been sent to the mankind of Israel, not to the entire world. Arabic grammar, you don’t know that. And according to Bible, Sir, Jesus is specifically saying I have not been sent to the mankind.
(Sakshi comment: Already answered. Repeating the question is not rebuttal).
The quotation that you gave. “I AM” in Exodus 3:14, when God said “I AM” in the original manuscript, the word is “HO ON”. When Jesus said, it is “EGO EMI”. And not “HO ON”. This “I AM “is different form that “I AM”. That is enough to disprove the divinity of Jesus and in your talk; you never disproved the messenger hood of Mohammad.
Note: Bro. Imran showed some pictures of the Quran. We do not know which manuscript he was speaking about. If IREF shares those with us we will upload those also in www.sakshitimes.com