On May 10, 2008, in Hyderabad, one of the largest ever Christian Muslim debate was held. Bro. Jerry was the Christian speaker and Bro. Imran the Muslim speaker. The topic of debate was- Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad: Separating Falsehood from Truth. Following the presentations from both the speakers, rebuttals were given in the same order of presentation. The transcript of the rebuttals follows.
Rebuttal by Bro. Jerry Thomas
Greetings to you in the precious name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Bro Imran wasted his first 10 minutes in insulting me. Next 10 minutes in speaking about the Bible. And the last few minutes in speaking about the great Mohammad sahab. Why can’t you speak about Mohammad sahab more than about Jesus or about insulting me? I leave that to him.
Bro. Imran told that he has raised 10 questions and in my lifetime I cannot answer him. Br Imran, I have prepared Calling to Islam- response to Calling to Islam- Calling to the Feet of Jesus Christ. Take it!
(Bro. Imran says- but he still cannot answer those questions).
Those questions are answered in that. And if you want to know that, you can go to the stall and we have kept a few books to sell it there, and you can buy it there. All the more, we have published it in our Sakshi website. Your questions are already answered.
Now coming to the question. I am taking directly from the question. Where did Jesus say, in the entire Bible for one single time in his direct speech, “I am the second person of Trinity”?
Brother, if you ask shallow questions like this, I can also ask you back. Where is the word “Tawheed” mentioned in the Quran? Where is the word for the first classification of Tawheed? Show me from the Quran: first classification of Tawheed is this, second classification of Tawheed is this, third classification of Tawheed is this. I challenge you. And in your lifetime you cannot.
Br. Imran raised 101 contradictions from the Bible. That has been already cleared. If you want to know, go and see the site “debate.org”.However, I have prepared exactly 101 contradictions from the Quran. If you want to debate on that, come, we will debate: Bible or Quran. You will not stand.
And then Bro said Quran is the miracle of miracles. I want to show you my brothers today, something. Mohammad sahab himself appointed a few people as the master reciters of Quran; Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Ibn Mas'ud were one of them. When Uthman compiled those Quran, Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Ibn Mas'ud were not among one of them.And I have prepared charts:
Jerry shows the charts- The variations in Ibn masood’s Quran and present day Quran.
And I don’t want to speak without evidence.
I will quote from Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s book itself. I am quoting from Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s Quran. In Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s Quran, Surah 33, in footnote number 3674, he says “in some of the Qira’ahs like Ubayy Bin Kaab, the word He is a father of them is also there. He is a father of them is also there. In the present day Quran, that word is not there. In Ubayy ibn Ka'b Quran, it is there!!! Quran is perfectly preserved. Nobody will believe in this at these times brother. Now if you want to debate, I can have a separate debate on that: Quran or The Bible. You will not be able to stand even for one minute.
Today you have not given me a single point refuting Jesus, the divinity of Jesus. And he can never, never, never do that.
Now, Brother went to Greek mythology to explain Trinity. I can take Oriental Encyclopedia and prove to the brother. In oriental encyclopedia, it says, Tawheed was the belief of the Egyptian magicians. The same Tawheed what brother believes!!!
Now brother spoke about Arius, and Emperor Constantine and he told that it was during the time of Emperor Constantine that the Trinity was established. Get your facts correct before you speak. Emperor Constantine did not support trinity. He supported Arius. Arius was one of the heretics who denied the divinity of Jesus, like how Bro Imran denies it.And Emperor Constantine supported it and asked them to reinstate him into the church. But on the day before Arius was reinstated, Arius died; was struck supernaturally by God and he died. That made Emperor Constantine rethink about his position. Later he supported trinity. Not first! First get your historical facts correct.
Now speaking about Tom, Jerry and all, those are personal insults. I will not do that. Because that is fitting more to an entertainment than to an educative program. I will not entertain doing that.
Brother Imran said the ministry of Jesus was limited to the Jews and he said that Jesus called the Samaritan woman as dog.
If only Bro Imran applies the same criteria:
In Surah 28: 46-47, and 32, 33 says Mohammad sahab was sent to people who had no warners before. Who are these people who had no warners before? It was the Arabs! So Mohammad sahab was sent only to the Arabs then!
Similarly, Quran is given in Arabic, Surah chapter 2:136, 165-157, and so many verses. Now Bro Imran may quote that Mohammad sahab was for the entire mankind. In the same way, I can show you, the ministry of Jesus was first to the Jews and to the entire world.
In Jesus’ own words, His death was for the salvation of the entire mankind (Matthew 20:28).
Gospel message has to be preached to all mankind (Matthew 10: 18).
His kingdom includes people from all nations (Matthew 8 11-2).How do we understand that? The Bible itself explains it. The Bible says in the Old Testament and the New Testament that the ministry of Jesus was first to the Jews and then to the entire world.
In fact, his own Quran says that.Quran says in Surah 3:49 and Surah 43:59, that Jesus’ ministry was limited to the Jews. However, the same Quran says in Surah 19 verse 21 that Jesus was a sign to all the people.
Bro Imran said,… He again came with the Greek Mythology and spoke about the Holy Spirit indwelling, coming upon Mary.But he doesn’t know that In Surah 21: 91, Allah himself said, “we breathe into her our spirit” and In Surah 66:12, Allah said, “we breath into her our spirit”. So first stick with your Quran, before you abuse the Bible.
Bro Imran said Mohammad sahab became poorer and poorer because of his prophethood. Quran contradicts him.
In Surah chapter 93 verse 96 to 8 says,” Did he not find thee an orphan and give thee shelter and care? We found thee wandering (or in error) and gave him guidance. We found thee in need and made thee independent”, and in some other translations “rich”.
However Sahih Bukhari Volume 3 verse 495 says Allah made the prophet wealthy through conquests. So bro. Imran, first check your hadith before you speak.
Brother Imran applied some scholars’ criteria to say that Mohammad sahab was bigger. I will show him from his own Quran that Jesus is greater and superior. Right now. Let’s go ahead.
Mother of Jesus
In Surah chapter 3 verse 42 it says Mary is above the women of all nations.
Now the disciples of Jesus In Surah chapter 3 verse 35 says disciples of Jesus are superior to others. In Surah chapter 5 verse 111, it says disciples of Jesus were inspired.
Followers of JesusIn Surah chapter 61 verse 14; it says followers of Jesus are the ones who prevail. Now the titles for Jesus. Before I go to that, let me remind Br. Imran. You with your amazing memory has not responded to the21 questions that I raised. I am not giving it to you, because brother sits like this and thinks he has an amazing memory; then go and respond to that 21 questions. Let me see. Now let me come to the titles of Jesus. In Surah chapter 3 verse 45 says “He is a Word from him.”
And the ministry of JesusAccording to Surah chapter 19 verse 27” Jesus started His ministry on the first day from his cradle”. Mohammad sahab had to wait forty years.
Jesus is holy.He asked “Jesus is tempted”. Jesus is tempted like how the Israelites tempted God in the wilderness yet God did not succumb to the temptations because God is pure and holy. That same pure and holy nature is in Jesus.
And I quote from Surah 19:19, Jesus is holy.
Adam’s sins are recorded in Surah 236,
Noah’s sins in Surah 11:45,
Mohammad sahab’s sins in Surah 4:102.
Again, Jesus is the author of life, Surah 3: 48 and 5:110. Similar to Allah in Surah 15:28 -29.
Jesus has the knowledge of the unseen (Surah 3:49) and surah 10:20 says Only Allah has the knowledge of the unseen. And there was a prophet. I am showing you the superiority of Jesus from your own Quran, not from some scholars. T
here was a prophet to prepare the way for Jesus, Surah 3:39. Can you show me any single prophet who had a prophet to prepare his way?
Now Surah chapter 3 verse 15, Christ is above the law.Now brother Imran, according to your Quran.I don’t want the testimony of your Quran; but for your sake I am giving it.
And finally, let me conclude, my brothers, by saying that Imran miserably failed to prove that Jesus is not God. He could not refute even one point. He quoted John17:5. Brother Imran.Your final resortation was into some of my slip of tongue. That was the only thing he could do. Not a single point. 21 points, I have raised. With your amazing memory, I would like to see it answered now.
May the grace of Jesus Christ and His NAME be glorified forever and ever.
Rebuttal by Bro. Imran Say to him,” Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished”. For falsehood is bound to perish”. It will perish. See, look at his presentation. Very good. Very appealing to everybody. Mimics Jerry.. Say” what is the meaning of the word begotten son of God”And he wants me to remember it. He is reading at 100 miles per hour and he wants me to remember it. See, I did the job. I prepared 10 questions, went to him. I said,” Please take it and read it.” He gave 50 minutes talk and 21 questions. Did you count it when you were giving? I said, ten. I put it in paper, very organized and gave it to you. He said “I can answer all of them.” 15 minutes. He did not even touch 1 of them. He did not even touch 1 of them. Then he quoted the Quran. He said there are.He wants us to read this entire book in 15 minutes. We don’t have any unholy spirit over us, and he said that I did not prove that Jesus is not divine. Why should I do it when you have done that job already? You never proved it. You already made the job easy. You did not prove that Jesus is divine. I did not touch it. The remaining tips, bits and pieces, I just joined to make it decorative. And he said, he was insulted because I said Tom and Jerry. By God, Allah is insulted more if I say you are a dog or a cat, you get insulted. If I say, you are Tom the mouse, you are insulted. But when you say Allah is human, Allah is insulted more. (Sakshi comment: Jerry never said Jesus is Allah of the Quran. Allah of the Quran is different from True God of the Biblical prophets. Please read Jerry’s presentation, you will see that not only Jerry made the distinction between the True God and Allah of the Quran; he gave enough evidences to show that Allah does not have the nature of the True God. Not one of those points is refuted. So Muhammad is the prophet of a spirit who is not the True God.)
Rebuttal by Bro. Imran
Say to him,” Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished”. For falsehood is bound to perish”. It will perish. See, look at his presentation. Very good. Very appealing to everybody. Mimics Jerry.. Say” what is the meaning of the word begotten son of God”And he wants me to remember it. He is reading at 100 miles per hour and he wants me to remember it. See, I did the job. I prepared 10 questions, went to him. I said,” Please take it and read it.” He gave 50 minutes talk and 21 questions. Did you count it when you were giving? I said, ten. I put it in paper, very organized and gave it to you. He said “I can answer all of them.” 15 minutes. He did not even touch 1 of them. He did not even touch 1 of them. Then he quoted the Quran. He said there are.He wants us to read this entire book in 15 minutes.
We don’t have any unholy spirit over us, and he said that I did not prove that Jesus is not divine. Why should I do it when you have done that job already? You never proved it. You already made the job easy. You did not prove that Jesus is divine. I did not touch it. The remaining tips, bits and pieces, I just joined to make it decorative. And he said, he was insulted because I said Tom and Jerry. By God, Allah is insulted more if I say you are a dog or a cat, you get insulted. If I say, you are Tom the mouse, you are insulted. But when you say Allah is human, Allah is insulted more.
(Sakshi comment: Jerry never said Jesus
is Allah of the Quran. Allah of the Quran is different from True God of the Biblical prophets. Please read Jerry’s presentation, you will see that not only Jerry made the distinction between the True God and Allah of the Quran; he gave enough evidences to show that Allah does not have the nature of the True God. Not one of those points is refuted. So Muhammad is the prophet of a spirit who is not the True God.)
I can also shout like this and I have the oratory skill. But that does not mean that you have won the debate. Then he brought some paper, big chart, and see, copycat. Sheik Deedat showed it, Zakir Naik showed it, I showed it. So he thought first time, first Christian to show it. Did anyone understand what was that chart. Nobody! That was just his presentation. He has done his masters in public speaking and communications, I suppose. Then he said, I said Quran is miracle of miracles. It is being recorded. I never said that. You said it and you put it on me to quote it. You said it. I never said. In my entire talk, I never quoted that. Quran is not preserved and he gave a website address. He said on debate.org, all the 101 contradictions have been answered.
What about the 50000 errors that your own Christian community brought out in the Bible. Not a Muslim! Jehovah Witness. Jehovah Witness, they believe that Jesus is God, equal to God and Son of God. There was a survey published in England and what was the survey. It was in the Time magazine, dated 25June 1984 and the survey said 31 out of 39 Anglican bishops of England do not believe that Jesus should be worshipped as God. Why should I waste my time disproving Jesus is God. Your community is doing it for me. You are doing it in your entire talk. I gave you 10 questions. I just said prove where did Jesus say that and you see, what was the question.
What is the meaning of the word “begotten Son of God”? He is cheating all of you. Do you know? He spoke in his speech “begotten Son of God”. Where was it? John 3:16 says God gave His only begotten Son of God. The same John3:16 in revised standard edition, the word “begotten” has been thrown out. No more there! My second question on the paper was “what is the difference between Jesus being called begotten son of God in John 3:16 and David being called as begotten son?” What did he say? Mr. Imran can quote from the Book of Psalms that David is also referred to as Son of God. He is not referred to as son of God. He is referred to as begotten son of God and the word begotten is still there. For Jesus, it has been thrown out. For Jesus, it has been thrown out. What does begotten mean?
(Sakshi comment: Please check the reference Jerry quoted in his presentation. It was Psalms 82 and not Psalms 2. Jerry was referring to many who are called as sons of God and God and the difference between them and Jesus. They by nature are not God but Jesus by nature is God. You will see Imran repeating by rephrasing it after a few minutes when he speaks about God having sons by tons. Already answered. As for the word begotten, please see Jerry’s presentation again the Greek word for begotten is monogenes which can be translated as the only begotten, only one, one of its kind etc which each translators use their discretion. Already answered in the Jerry’s presentation).
My third question was “Is Jesus the firstborn?” they say Jesus is the firstborn Son of God, or only Son of God. If you read the book of Exodus chapter 4 verse 22, it says “Israel is My firstborn”. If you read the book of Jeremiah chapter 31 verse 9, it says “Ephraim is My firstborn”.
If you read the book of Psalms chapter 2 verse 7, it says “This day I have begotten you”. To whom? David! David was 40 years old when he was begotten. Then you see, he cheated all of you again. Where? He said, the moment Jesus was born, he started His ministry. And it took 40 years for Mohammed. You are wrong! The Bible Gospel of Luke chapter 2 verse 38 says it was at the age of 30 years that He started His ministry.
(Sakshi: Did Jerry say from the Holy Bible or Quran? If Jerry has to quote the Holy Bible, he can quote about Jesus being worshipped from his very birth itself Matthew 2:11).
I am asking, what was Jesus doing for 30 years as God incarnate on earth.
He again said I am quoting history wrong. You are quoting it wrong to the people. You are misquoting. You check your facts again. You said Constantine did not do it. I will give you the history. Constantine, he initially supported trinity. Later he reversed back to it when he died. It was in 381 it was established. But, Theodosius, the follower of Constantine, I was not wrong because Constantine, in 385 Christian era supported Trinity, before his death in 38, he again retreated. He said, “I will not support Trinity”. So what did he do? He said “Correct yourself”. You Correct Yourself! And give honest information to the people.
And he said, in the entire debate, if you say like this, you can’t win it. I have not come to win or loose, Sir. I have come to make you a Muslim like Jesus Christ (PBUH). And the Book, the one which he gave. There are one billion books written. I can bring a library like this for you. Let us be limited to the 50 minutes. You yourself know nobody ca read an entire book and the way you are quoting. See, he said,” the Quran is a miracle that is what we say”. Arae, Sir, you are quoting a Bible that has so many errors. How can I believe this statement or any statement of the Bible to be true? 50000 errors published Jehovah Witness published it. Jesus, you pronounced the name of the word wrong. He didn’t give the answer, the language of Jesus. 15 minutes. He didn’t give it. About the temptation of the devil, he agreed that Jesus was tempted by the devil. He agreed to it. But you see blindness and dogma. Even if Jesus was tempted, it is not that way. You please believe. Jesus is referred as the Son of God in the Bible. How many times, you
know in the NT? 83 times. And as Son of God, He is mentioned only 17 times. And these 17 times, it is mentioned are very less compared to 83 times.
(Sakshi Comment: What is the argument here???)
There are many others who are mentioned as sons of God. Book of Genesis chapter 6 verse 2 and 4: the sons of God married the daughters of men.” All of us are sons of God. Book of Romans chapter 8 verse 14 says “whosoever is led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God, are the children of God.” There are sons by tons in the Bible, to God. Why only specifically Jesus? He is nowhere referred in a separate manner.
(Sakshi: Already answered in the presentation)
And he said from the Quran, he can prove me that Jesus is very highly honored. Why do you want to shout like this? I already said we revere Jesus holy and great. When did I reject that? What did you try to prove? So that was a good way to present to the people. Even if you win an argument with Tom, Dick and Jerry or any Abdullah, Abdurahman or Yusuf that does not mean Islam is wrong. That person can be weak. Islam still cannot be wrong. After a great effort on Sakshi website, he said, on the Sakshi website, “I have put the answers”. Daily I used to check it. There is not a single answer in it. Except the debate he had earlier, and there what he did, you know? He cheated the Muslim brother there. How? In the debate, he has put only the questions he has given. He didn’t put the answers of the Muslim brother there.
Then they are very proud of a person called Anis Shorrosh, an Arab Christian and that Arab Christian, he gave an answer to the Glorious Quran and he wrote a book,” Al Furqan Al haq”. This is the base.
(Sakshi comment: What is the point here? Bro. Imran showed some pictures at this point. We do not have any of the pictures that he showed. Here is the website that you can read True Furqan http://www.islam-exposed.org/furqan/contents.html)
He said he wants to challenge me for the debate. You arrange a similar kind of debate. I am ready for that challenge. Not by us. Not to be organized by us. You organize same platform, same stage. Do it the same way we have done it. I am ready for the Debate. I don’t want to come in those closed room meetings, closed rooms! Why? See nobody is exposed there. Nobody is exposed. And what does he want me to prove that Jesus.
He quoted Surah 5:75 and in 72 also Allah says,” Whosoever says Allah is Christ Jesus, Son of Mary, they blaspheme.”“O you children of Israel, worship Allah as my God and your God, Whoever associates any partner with Allah, Allah will make haram upon them. His abode will be hell fire. There they will not find any protectors for them.” This is what Allah said in the Quran. He said I might quote that Jesus ate. I want to ask in the entire life if Jesus ate, did He never attend the call of nature too. This is what he wanted to say. Why are you making your own mockery? If Jesus ate, naturally, He will have to attend the nature’s call also.
Similarly, apart from that Gospel of Luke chapter 2 verse 31-35, Jesus was circumcised. Is God circumcised? And if Jesus is circumcised, Sir, Then according to you, Jesus is holy and equal to God. Where is that portion thrown away? Jesus should be holy.
See, I didn’t abuse. These are very cunning ways. You see, what they did? They went to the police department, “we want security.” They are giving sympathy like this. In his statement, you are abusing. So any common person when he hears,” why Imran, you should not speak like this.” Watch him. He has been abusing the Quran throughout his speech. Alright, he has come or a debate. Debate is an argument. In an argument, you have all the right to present your academics. I have all the right to present my academics. You presented in you way. I present it in my way. What is the abuse there? I am quoting and quoting. I am not a hafiz at Bible. Why should I become a hafiz at Bible when no Christian dared to become till now. But still I am better than you. At least I memorized these verses, which you didn’t do. And you kept the paper and misquoted. He said, “I am presenting it”.
And about Mohammad (saaw), I ask the Christian scholars,”Your Bible, does it speak about the future?” So they say, it speaks everything about future. It speaks everything about future. What does it say about Mohammad (saaw)? Nothing? A great personality! Encyclopedia Britannica is saying greatest person on earth and the Bible doesn’t speak about anything. I say it is not like that. Sir, you are not disclosing it to the people. In the Songs of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16, the name of Muhammad (saaw) is mentioned in the Bible. It says Mohammadim”. Why Mohammaddim?Any person who understands Hebrew will understand “IM” in Hebrew language is added for respect. “Eloh” is the name for “Elah”. Elohim, they say in Hebrew language. Elohim, meaning, the God. Mohammadim, with respect. What did they do in the English translation? They translated the name. Have you heard that proper nouns are translated? If somebody’s name is Mr. Bush, can I translate in Hindi and say Mr. Jaani? They translated the name of Mohammad.
(Sakshi comment: We are surprised that after baselessly making allegations against the Holy Bible, 101 contradictions and fifty thousand errors, Bro. Imran has to fall at the feet of the Holy Bible to make any case for the messengerhood of Muhammad. But it does not work. You will s
ee Bro. Jerry refuting this and Bro. Imran saying “I only said the name Muhammad (saaw) comes in the Bible. I didn’t say there it is mentioned as prophet.” We can have a hearty laugh now. Remember if the Holy Bible is not reliable, then Bro. Imran can never verify the claims of Muhammad. Bro.Imran has no option. He has to fall at the feet of the Holy Word. Read Jerry’s presentation)
I have brought the photocopies of the Quran preserved. The difference he showed; See, the problem with him is he doesn’t know Arabic at all. Without knowing Arabic, he is talking about Quran. So what will happen? It is like a blind person, a born blind person trying to explain colors to the people.”This is yellow, this is red”. He is born blind!
(Sakshi comment: We do not which photocopy he is showing?)
According to Arabic grammar, Sir, if you don’t know, now you learn it. According to Arabic grammar, if it is specified, then it fits only to that. Even afterwards, it is generalized. Quran said in Surah 3 ayats 50-55, that Isa is sent only for Bani-Israel. After that, in the Quran, it is said He is sent for Annas, it means He has been sent to the mankind of Israel, not to the entire world. Arabic grammar, you don’t know that. And according to Bible, Sir, Jesus is specifically saying I have not been sent to the mankind.
The quotation that you gave. “I AM” in Exodus 3:14, when God said “I AM” in the original manuscript, the word is “HO ON”. When Jesus said, it is “EGO EMI”. And not “HO ON”. This “I AM “is different form that “I AM”. That is enough to disprove the divinity of Jesus and in your talk; you never disproved the messenger hood of Mohammad.
(Sakshi comment: We can laugh at this statement. Empty words without evidence. Read Bro. Jerry’s and Bro. Imran’s presentation and count the number of evidence that Bro. Jerry and Bro. Imran gave. Muhammad being under the magic, receiving satanic revelation, contradicting the earlier prophets etc is not sufficient!!! He never gave any evidence for the messengehood of Muhammad. Read the entire transcript of Bro. Imran’s presentation and rebuttal, you will hardly see any evidence for the messengerhood of Muhammad).