On May 10, 2008, in Hyderabad, one of the largest ever Christian Muslim debate was held. Bro. Jerry was the Christian speaker (From Sakshi: An Apologetics Network in India) and Bro. Imran (Founder President, IREF and International Islamic Scholar) was the Muslim speaker. The topic of debate was- Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad: Separating Falsehood from Truth. Following is the transcript of the presentation by Bro. Imran (Part 1 of 2).
Note: Greetings said in Arabic are not transliterated here.
Note: Greetings said in Arabic are not transliterated here.
Respected Sheikh Arshad Madani, my dear brother Mansoor, the master of conduct for this evening debate, Mr. George, Mr. Sudheer and Mr. George, the guests of this evening debate from Sakshi: An Apologetics Network in India, all my dear elders in the audience and all my dear brothers and sisters, I welcome all of you with the Islamic greetings.
The subject of this debate is Divinity of Jesus and Messenger hood of Muhammad (saaw). I was keenly observing Bro. Jerry for the past 50 minutes and I was constantly being reminded of the world’s popular cartoon show Tom and Jerry show. And I personally concluded after listening for the past 50 minutes that he must have taken his entire motivation to boldly speak in a loud voice and try to adventure things which can never happen or be proven, by getting motivation from Jerry, not this Jerry, but the mouse Jerry of Tom and Jerry. Because in Tom and Jerry cartoon show, the mouse there always wins over Tom, the rat. And in fact in one of the cartoon episodes Thomas is the name of the cat, the tom there. So you see two opposites in his name exist together. And he thinks it will happen everywhere. But sorry to say you Sir, two opposites can never exist together except that you have some mental problem. I cannot say this is a bright day night. How can there be bright day and night together. I cannot say that Jerry is a very tall short man. I cannot say he is black and white. Either he will be black or white. I cannot say that he is man and woman together. Either he will be man or woman.
Anyway, not to keep the entire subject very stereotyped, I try to bring a little sense of humor. I personally apologize if he has taken it as an attack because more than the name of Jesus, he was taking my name throughout his speech. As far as I remember; might be I am wrong.
Anyway, anyway, that’s very good. He will get blessings for it. Because Imran is the name of the grandfather of Isa. He is the Nana Jaan, the father of Mariam, mother of Isa.
Coming to the subject, Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad (saaw). Before I start discussing this subject, let me make the Muslim stand very clear, not my stand, the Muslim stand as a whole.
Let me make the Muslim stand very clear to all of you. We Muslims, only on one dictate of Prophet Muhammad (saaw), one person Muhammad (saaw) made the 1.2 billion Muslims of today and the entire Muslims of the world. To make it an article of faith to not only to respect but to believe in Jesus (PBUH). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus Christ (PBUH). We Muslims, we believe that Jesus Christ is a mighty messenger of Allah. We Muslims, we believe that Jesus Christ (PBUH) is very close in the ranks of other messengers to Allah. We Muslims, we believe that Jesus Christ (PBUH) healed those who were born blind and lepers, but with Allah’s permission. We Muslims, we believe that Jesus (PBUH) gave life to the dead, but by Allah’s permission.
No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe this, as far as respecting and believing in Jesus in flesh. That he quoted. It is a wrong spirit. It is not from God if they don’t believe in Jesus. Alhamdurallah, I have proven that Muslims believe in Jesus; Muhammad (saaw) is the true messenger of Allah.
There is no other non-Christian who claimed and the messenger and made it an article of faith in the world to believe in Jesus (PBUH), except Muhammad (saaw). According to his own standards, Muhammad is a messenger of Allah.
Coming to my subject of the debate Divinity of Jesus (PBUH), and Messenger hood of Muhammad (saaw), Separating falsehood from truth. As a Muslim, I am not a pseudo secular who would say 2+2=4, 2+2=5 and 2+2=7 because otherwise the Christians will feel hurt or other non-Muslims will feel hurt. By God, I am a proud Muslim and a proud Indian to believe that I am a Muslim who doesn’t believe Jesus to be the Almighty God. I only believe him to be the messenger of Allah, not a God. I don’t believe him to be one of the Trinity. I do not believe him to be equal to God and I don’t believe anyone else to be equal to Allah.
And the way he was expressing himself, I was a little sympathetic also. I felt he has been possessed by some unholy spirit. His expressions are so serious. I was afraid that he would come and knock me down. “What? Would you believe or not?” Anyway, I am sure, that’s his; might be that is the malayali attitude towards that. But Hyderabadi’s are very guest loving people. We welcome you to our city of Hyderabad.
And, and, mashallah, before he came for this debate, his team was very worried about his security. They went to the higher-ups in the police department, thinking that the ignorant Muslims might hit him. Walla sir, I promise you, I will take you to my home and then leave you to your place. Your security is equal to my security and more than me. You are our guest. Don’t worry about that. It is an academic even, Sir. Academically, you can present anything unless and until you don’t do anything which is against the constitution of the land. Nothing will happen to you, Insha’Allah.
Now, you see, I have decided to discuss the subject of the debate Divinit
y of Jesus and Messenger hood of Muhammad (saaw) under 2 topics, under 2 headings, main headings:
Divinity of Jesus
Messenger hood of Muhammad (saaw) as it is behind me.
Under Divinity of Jesus, I shall be discussing the subject basically under 3 subheadings.
The first subheading being, the Holy Bible, which throughout the talk, Jerry Thomas had as his platform to prove that Jesus is God. The Holy Bible is the entire Holy Bible, the Word of God.
My second part, i.e., the second subheading under divinity of Jesus is the History of Trinity and is Jesus God according to the Bible.
My 3rd subheading is the status of Jesus (PBUH) in the house of Islam.
To begin with, the first one is the entire bible the Word of Almighty God. Respected Sir, you are a great research scholar of Christianity as you claim. Till now, 8.40 p.m., 10 May 2008, till now, not a single Christian scholar of high eminence has ever claimed that this entire Bible is the Word of Almighty God. Not a single person. I challenge you to produce one, academically. Not one. And the learned people, I am not talking about Jerry. I don’t know how much learned he is. I am talking about learned people of Christianity. The learned people of Christianity, they say that this Bible basically has 3 categories of authors, and these three categories of authors are “supposed to be”, that statement, “supposed to be”. Why? Even the highest people cannot claim it to be true. So they say “supposed to be”. The 3 authors are:
Almighty God, supposed to be
The Holy prophets,
The statements of these 3 authors are mixed up so much, in other words, I would say, in inverted commas united so much, that it is impossible to disunite them. It is unidentifiable, which statement in the Bible belongs to God, which statement belongs to prophets and which belongs to historians, except that on the basis of context and references with analysis, it might be understood, might be, that this is a statement of God, might be that this is a statement of Prophet and might be this is a statement of historian. But no author has ever claimed or scholar has claimed that the entire Bible is the Word of God.
Secondly, the word Bible, many Muslims and non-Muslims think it means the Book revealed to Jesus, Moses and David. Many Muslims, they think that the Torah, Zaboor and Injeel in the Quran is the Holy Bible. The Torah, Zaboor and Injeel are not the Holy Bible. I request my Muslim brothers and sisters not to go beyond the Christian scholars. The Christian scholars themselves do not say that this is the Torah, Zaboor and Injeel. They say “supposed to be”, meaning “this is what we think. We are not sure about it.”
This Bible, the OT ad the NT, are the 2 two major portions. The OT said to be the books written before Jesus (PBUH). And the NT said to be the books written after Jesus (PBUH). I would repeat again.
OT, the books written before Jesus
NT, the books written after Jesus
The book at the time of Jesus is not there in any Bible in the world. It’s after; it’s before. God came and the entire Christian world does not have what the God says by His own words.
It is inspired. It is inspired. It is not revelation. He said,” what is the proof about Muhammad (saaw) getting the revelation?” I think I can give several proofs. The biggest proof is the Quran. Can you show me any hafiz of the Bible, I challenge you. Biggest proof, the Quran of being, and the Bible not being the Word of God. Quran has hufaz. Muhammad (saaw) was a Hafis. And Jerry, I will give you a lifetime challenge to memorize the entire Bible, whichever your choice, 73 books, 66 books, 87 books etc. There are so many Bibles. Whichever you want, according to your ease, you memorize it. Not in English, in the original language, which you will never get.
But you must be wondering, my topic is Divinity of Jesus. Why am I quoting about Bible so much. Because there is a book which says there are about 101 contradictions in the Bible. How many? These are minimum 101. There are 101 contradictions in the Bible, this Bible that he has been so proudly quoting to prove Jesus is God, believe it. I will believe when you solve the 101 contradictions.
Then according to a magazine that is published from London, England, and that magazine is “the Awake” magazine. The Awake magazine belongs to one of the staunchest
Christian cult: Jehovah Witness.
(Sakshi comment: Please note that Bro. Imran himself knows that Jehovah witness is one of the staunchest Christian CULT. Still he would quote from them. Is he an honest scholar then?)
For these Jehovah Witness, they are masters in missionary work. Jerry is a small child compared to them. They are masters. So these Jehovah Witness, the magazine that they have printed, The Awake magazine, they gave a shocking news. Shocking news not for non-Christians, but for the Christians. And it was startling for the Christians. What was that news? It was printed in Sept 1957-58. The magazine prints, what does it print? 50000 errors in the Bible! No Muslim publication! No Hindu publication! Pure strong Christian publication saying 50000 errors in the Bible. Jerry will not believe in it. He will say, “No, no, no, you see, so many people tried to prove it”. It is not true. So I would like to give Jerry-that he wanted to gift me. But I don’t want to gift you. Purchase it or read it and give it back to me.
The preface of the Revised Standard Version says the King James Version has serious defects. What is King James Version? It is also the Holy Bible, the Word of God. What is Revised Standard Version? It is also the Word of God. So this word of God was corrected by 32 eminent scholars of Christianity backed by 50 denominations. And Jerry and the Sakshi team was not one of them. They say The King James Version has serious defects; the Word of God has serious defects. Who is correcting it? The Man. But again, the question remains. Why I am quoting on the Bible so much? The reason for that is very simple.
With 101 mistakes and about 50000 errors in the Bible, yet there is not a single unequivocal statement of Jesus where Jesus said “I am God, worship me.” Not 1 statement, with so many mistakes. That mistake is still not there in it. There is not one verse where Jesus ever said “I am God or Worship me”.
Now the problem. Jerry: “I know Mr. Imran will quote this. I know Mr. Imran will quote this.” So childish. Whatever I am going to quote, I know I will be quoting from the Bible. What if I say, I know what you will be quoting. I know the popular ayats you people will quote. If I guess it, it is nothing great. The interpretation becomes very important. So he said, he quoted my “Calling to Islam” book.
This is the book that I had written and published. So he quoted this book. In this book, he said, “I quoted one verse, I quoted another verse. You see, Br Imran doesn’t quote after that. If I quote after that, I find that whatever I am quoting is contradicting with what is coming afterwards. You understand? If I quote a verse of Jesus where Jesus says” I am not God” the verse that he quotes says “I am God”. So first Christianity should first solve that problem “which one we should quote?” Yet, in the entire Bible, again a lifetime challenge for him, entire Bible, I will arrange an entire session only for that answer. Show me one verse in the entire Bible where Jesus said “I am God” or where he said worship Me.” Not a single verse.
Coming to the history of trinity. He said triune God. What is triune God? Meaning God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. These three are in one. They are not 3, but one. And he gave a beautiful example. What was the example? He said, if I say ”my mother and father are one or some example he gave to prove two personalities are one, I didn’t give an ear to it because it is not an important example. Commonly quoted examples. Well I can give hundered more than he can give me because the nature is the same in every apologetic. Father and Mother are one. How may personalities when I say father and mother? One person or 2 persons? Two. Sure?
I said all Indians are one. What does it mean? Personality wise we are different or personality wise we are one? Geographically, we are all Indians, we are one. We follow the same law of land. We are proud to be Indians. Geographically! Ideologically, we are one. Personality wise, different. So he said, see every point, I cant do it. We have the chief guest from the Sakshi, who is a lawyer. I am not a lawyer. So I can’t pick every point to have a discussion like a lawyer in a court room.
But whatever were his important confusions and doubts, to put it to the right place, I would like to give an example. I am sure Jerry will understand it very easily. See, in my schooldays, when I was in school, we were taught the principle of BODMAS. What is the principle of BODMAS? If you want to solve any problem in mathematics, you should apply BODMAS principle. What is BODMAS?
Brackets Off, Division, Multiplication, Addition and Subtraction.
For example, if I give you an equation: 1+1+1= how much. To solve it, you have to apply BODMAS. What is BODMAS? Brackets Off, Division, Multiplication, Addition and Subtraction. If this rule you apply, the answer will come right. If I ask 1+1+1=how much? 1+1+1=how much? Tell me. Everybody knows it. How much? But if I say 1+1+1=1. Am I applying BODMAS or not? NO. I gave a wrong answer. So he wants the entire world to believe that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, 1+1+1 is not three, but it is one. Are these the same? This is what he wants to prove. The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost, these three are not three, they are only one. Even if every human being becomes an Einstein of their time, they cannot solve this problem. Nobody can solve this. 1+1+1 is not 3, it is 1.
So to make it convenient for Br. Jerry, I have decided to give him a principle of religious BODMAS and if he applies the principle of religious BODMAS, I assure all of you and him, if
he applies the principle of religious BODMAS, he will immediately come from there, here and say, “Imran bhai, all my faith in Christianity has fallen onto utter ruin. All my questions in Islam, they are solved by myself. Because for the first time in my life, I applied the principle of religious BODMAS. But all of you would love to what is religious BODMAS. Religious BODMAS means religious blindness off, dogmas minus, apply scripture.
If he starts applying scriptures, I challenge him he cannot prove the divinity of Jesus from the scripture. If he tries to prove it, he will have to for his lifetime try to solve the contradictions in the Bible. And he said, I should not give my interpretations. He keeps quoting IREF website, calling to Islam, IREF website…… Walla, what Imran says, what IREF website says or what anybody else says is zero in Islam. But if I say from the Quran and Hadith, that is most valuable. Similarly, Similarly, Similarly, what Tom, Dick and Jerry says is zero. I want what Jesus himself said about this subject. Lifetime challenge! Show me in the words of Jesus. Not 2 hours, not 3 hours. Lifetime challenge!
Show me the words of Jesus where He said: “I am God.” Or where he said worship me” and he quotes Matthew 19:16, 17 what he said from my book.
(Sakshi Comment: He quotes the first reference from any scripture almost after 24 minutes!!!)
I quoted from the Bible that according to the Bible, Jesus said “Why thou callest Me good? There is none good, but one. That is God.” So he wants me to understand and believe that in other verses, further, he says “I have glorified you God. So now you should glorify me.” I am equal to God. And he quoted John 17:3, 4 and he said verses 5, Jesus says, “O God, Glorify Me like You.” Who should glorify Jesus? Man or God? Jesus is praying to God and saying “God, I glorified You. You also glorify Me.” Is it sounding sense that God will say “O mankind, I am the God, and this Jesus is My God?” How?
There is an ayat in the Quran, Surah 4:80 where Allah said, “Whosoever obeys Allah, he obeys Muhammad (saaw). Does that mean Muhammad (saaw) is Allah?
Allah said in Glorious Quran Surah 90: “O Prophet! We have raised you zikr high in esteem and in every asdf we say Allahuakbar. Does that mean Allah and Muhammad (saaw)are equal? It doesn’t mean that.
And the history of trinity is something very important for all of us to know. What is trinity? As I said, The Holy Father, the Holy Son and the Holy Ghost, these three are not three, but they are one. The word “Trinity” or its root word, which is the Doctrine of trinity, doesn’t occur in the Bible for one single time. From where did they get it? A billion dollar question! From where did the Christians get TRINITY? St. Paul in the NT. If you read NT, you will find that St.Paul is the author of more than 70% of the NT. More than 70%, St.Paul is the author for NT. And St.Paul, I think is the Einstein and Edison of modern day Christianity. He invented many things in Christianity. But he also failed to invent Trinity.
According to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, there is no concept of Trinity. From where did they get it?
And the Christians present the concept of Trinity to the world as if it is an original concept introduced to the world by Christianity. Trinity concept already existed in several other religions and cultures before it
got introduced into modern day Christianity.
If you read the Babylonian civilization, 2000 years before Jesus (PBUH) they worshipped a triplet God, meaning a God which is triune, like they say. The Babylonians also said there are three gods, but these three are not three, they are one.
Hinduism that we have in our country, much earlier than Jesus Christ (PBUH), Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, you find those three heads, the triplet Gods, were already there before Jesus.