Presentation of Bro. Imran: Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad (Part 2 of 2)

On May 10, 2008, in Hyderabad, one of the largest ever Christian Muslim debate was held. Bro. Jerry was the Christian speaker (From Sakshi: An Apologetics Network in India) and Bro. Imran (Founder President, IREF and International Islamic Scholar) was the Muslim speaker. The topic of debate was- Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad: Separating Falsehood from Truth. Following is the transcript of the presentation by Bro. Imran (Part 2 of 2).

Egypt, they had it. Greeks, if you read the Bible and the Greek mythology, you will find such a great similarity. Draper is a great historian. Draper, he wrote a book by the name,” Conflict between Religion and Science”. And in this book he says that Apollo was a mythological Holy Ghost, according to the Greek Pantheon.

(Sakshi comment: Since the Islamic scholar Bro. Imran (not us) accepts the authority of Draper on religion; we encourage Muslims to read what Draper has to say on Muhammad sahab in the same book History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science:  – “By the monk Bahira, in the convent at Bozrah, Mohammed was taught the tenets of the Nestorians” “It is well known among physicians that prolonged fasting and mental anxiety inevitably give rise to hallucination” “Mohammedanism, as left by its founder, was an anthropomorphic religion. Its God was only a gigantic man, its heaven a mansion of carnal pleasures.”  http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/draper03.htm Honest Muslims should ask Bro. Imran why he is quoting such sources.

 And this Apollo, he came into the dream of a person called Arius and he said, “Arius, I have conceived your fiancée with my child.” Meaning your fiancée she is going to become the mother of my child. Who is saying this? The Holy Ghost. According to Greek mythology, who is it? Apollo! Apollo says, according to Greek mythology that Arius in his dream, not in reality, in the dream, said that, “Arius, you see, I have conceived your fiancée. So don’t go near her. And later the child that was born, he was said to be the son of the Holy Ghost and the son of god. The Egyptian disciples of Plato, they used to think that Plato is the son of god. It was already there.

If you read Gospel of Matthew chapter 1 verse 20, you ill find Holy Ghost comes in the dream of Joseph, the carpenter, who was a spouse to Mary and says similar things. He says, “Joseph, I have conceived Mary by my Child. So don’t mistrust her. She is a very good woman. She is going to give birth to My baby now.” From where did they get it? Copied it from there! Then, still you see, trinity is not coming there. From where did it come? So if you read the history, if you visit Wikipedia, he was quoting my website, I will quote you very strong authentic historical websites, Wikipedia, encyclopedia Britannica, if you visit these websites, you will find these websites, they say that Trinity was introduced at the time of Constantine, a Roman king. Who is Constantine? A king. What happened in his time? He wanted to have an influence on his people. So in the year 321, you will find that the Christians in Rome were in a hot discussion, whether Jesus is God, equal to God or not God. So in 321, you will find that the discussion started in the form of a confrontation now. Quarrelling started. Constantine was worried now in his kingdom, what was going wrong? So he decided to call all learned Christian scholars and seat them. And he made them sit together and he said to them,”C’mon, now have the discussion in front of me.” And then, in that discussion, there was a Christian scholar from Alexandria of Egypt.

He had a quarrel with his presbyter, by the name Arius. And in this quarrel, Constantine supported Alexander of Alexandria, who proposed the theory of Trinity for the first time and Constantine ordered that from today, Trinity should become an official concept of all Christians, which is not there in the Bible at all. Afraid of the king, the Christians of that time started to follow. Then in 381, the follower of Constantine, Theosidus, he made it compulsory as an official religion to believe in Trinity.

 And this belief in Trinity, if you read the entire Bible, the closest verse to Trinity in the Bible, you will find in the first epistle of John chapter 5verse 7, which says : And in the heaven records 3 names : The Holy Father, The Holy Son and The Holy Ghost. And these three are one. Closest verse to Trinity in King James Version. But, when it was revised, even this closest verse in the Bible has been thrown out. They said,”Get out, you are not the Word of God.” The remotest verse to Trinity is thrown out of the Bible. It is no more there. So, therefore, I said, dogma. What is dogma? To believe without any reasoning.  If I ask him, “Sir, who believed in Trinity?” You see, if you read the Bible, he will quote one verse, other verse.

(Sakshi comment: Bro. Imran realizes that Jerry already provided the evidence of Trinity from the Holy Bible in his presentation and now he tries damage cont

rol)

And see, the debate he has given a new shape to it. He quoted a few debates earlier. He said I have had debates with one or two Muslim brothers earlier and he won it. I doubt for that. Might be. My Muslim brother’s presentation was not in a suffering manner. He must have presented very politely and it appeared to you that you won the debate. Alhamdulillah! The weakest of the Muslims will never loose. We have the strength of the truth with us. The weakest will never loose. I never claim. I never claimed that I won many debates with anybody.

And in fact, he said how can I be an international scholar. I am already an international scholar, Sir. If you don’t want to believe, you don’t believe.

 Now about Jesus being God from the Bible, I want to read it daily. Every verse, one by one, I am not finding it still. Where did Jesus say, “I am God. Worship me.”?One statement. Simple question to him. Where did Jesus say, “I am God. Worship me.”?One statement. So he quoted, “You see, Jesus said that “I AM”. Verily, Verily, I say unto you…..” He quoted Gospel of John chapter 8 verse 58. He said, “Verily, Verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.” See, how can Jesus be there before Abraham, unless He is God? So Jesus is God. Is that a proof for God? Before Abraham was with God, even I was in His knowledge; even you were there. In His knowledge everybody was there.

And before Abraham, even Satan was there. Does that mean that is God? Is that a proof to prove that Jesus is divine? It is a laughing stock.

(Sakshi comment: It is a laughing stock that though Jerry clearly cautioned Bro. Imran that he should not bring this false interpretation, and gave evidences from the scripture, Bro. Imran still brings it because he has nothing else to say to fill 50 minutes. See Jerry’s presentation)

Only because he said “Before Abraham was, I am “. You see, who can be before Abraham? God! Then he quoted another verse. And he quoted it wrong. Although he had the paper with him in front of him; he quoted a wrong verse form the Bible, even keeping a paper. He quoted Gospel of Matthew chapter 5 verse 19. It is being video recorded. You can cross check.

(Sakshi comment: We cross checked it. Bro. Jerry did not quote any of these verses wrong. Though we accept that slip of tongues can happen with anyone).

 Matthew chapter 5 verse 19: Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees and the Scribes…. That is the verse there. You quoted some other verse there. And you also quoted Gospel of John chapter 5 verse 19. It is not John chapter 5 verse 19, Sir. It is John chapter 5 verse 30. It is video recorded.  No, no, you quoted later. First you made a mistake and then corrected it immediately. Anyway, it is video recorded. 16 cameras, we have for video recording. You have only four. He quoted Gospel of John chapter 5 verse 30 where he wanted to prove that by nature Jesus is equal to God. Now, I don’t know what is the unnatural way of God not being equal to God. I don’t know if Jesus had two natures: one is natural and other is unnatural. He said supernatural. Supernatural means over the God. Check any dictionary Sir. English is very good with Keralites. What does supernatural mean? Which is not according to nature? Who is nature? God is nature.

(Sakshi comment: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural)

Supernatural means over the God. Jesus is supernatural? In what way should I believe in supernatural? Anyway, I do not want to quote many more verses which I have brought along with me. Just to put a few of them. The God came on earth. The Christians today welcomed Him, welcomed God: You are on earth all these days. 

And when the God came here, 40 days the shaitan is tempting Him. I don’t say that. And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed for a season, for some time, he went away from Jesus. He tempted Jesus! The devil! God is being tempted by the devil? And he was there in the wilderness 40 days, tempted by the shaitan. Who was there? Jesus. 40 days, shaitan is tempting Him. But He was in all points tempted like we are. You understand? If there is a sinner who looks at a naked woman and he coitus: Ha! Naked woman! Tempted!!! So, the Bible is saying Jesus was tempted like us.  What does it say? “But was in all ways tempted like as we are, yet without sin”! He is not a sinner yet. He is sinless. Even if He is tempted like you and me, Jesus is sinless. Why? Because this is a blind belief!

Unless they don’t apply religious BODMAS (Blindness Off, Dogmas Minus,), you have any reason? We don’t have any reason but we believe it. And he will start. “See, Jesus said in Matthew chapter 7 verse 1 and 2, “Don’t judge others, so that you may not be judged. As you will judge others, so will you be judged?” How?

He said he doesn’t want explanations from me. See, all this time I have been giving evidences with my explanations. 90% of his explanations are one verse he quotes and explanations come from him. Whose explanations? Is it in the Quran? Is it in the Hadith? Is it in the Bible? It is his explanations. Not from the Bible.

Sakshi comment: Because Bro. Imran claimed this, out of curiosity, Sakshi counted the number of verses cited by Bro. Jerry and Bro. Imran in their respective presentations. If the same speaker quotes one verse twice, we counted it as one. Here is the result:

You decide who is giving his own explanations.

How can he believe Jesus to be God, when the entire Bible is without a statement that He is God? And He is tempted by shaitan. Is this the tendency or a nature of God? He said, by nature, Jesus is like God.  Does God tempted by shaitan? Can anybody believe it? Can God be ever tempted by Shaitan? And he wants us to believe that Jesus by nature is like God, and He was tempted by shaitan.

And James chapter 1 verse 13 says God can never be tempted by shaitan. Neither will God tempt any human being. Jesus is not God. Show me one verse, one verse from the entire Bible where any of the disciples of Jesus, they worshipped Jesus in His lifetime saying “You are our God”. One verse. See, who will be the closest?

Tomorrow somebody goes out of the program and there are some people who meet you. They asked you about the program and then they go to somebody to tell about this program. Are you a better evidence or they the better evidence? But natural, the persons who are here. The disciples of Jesus, not for one single time in His entire lifetime, worshipped Jesus as God.

(Sakshi comment: Did he hear the beginning of Jerry’s presentation, John 20:28???)

And they want the entire world to believe that Jesus was God and we should worship Him. Who said this? Did God say that? No! Did Jesus say that in the Bible? No. From where did you get it? So they have contradictory verses which they interconnect with each other with their own explanations.

How much time more? 11 minutes more

About the messenger hood of Mohammad (saw). What should I speak?

He spoke 100 things. But he didn’t disprove that Muhammad (saaw) is not the messenger of God. If Jesus can be tempted by shaitan, what will happen if Muhammad (saaw) has some problem of sorcery?

(Sakshi comment: Muslims must think about Bro. Imran’s admission of Muhammad being under magic. Since Muhammad was under the magic spell, he cannot be even a true believer according to the Holy Bible or even the Quran.  Decision is yours.)

Is it logical? Judge not others that you may not be judged. The problem with him is he is a habituated translation reader. Why? Where is the original of the Bible? He never reads the Bible in its original. He reads the translation, translation, translation, translation. Jerry, can you please help me? Excuse me, Jerry. Can you please help me? What was the language of Jesus? You will tell! Okay, I will tell also the question afterwards. And I again give you a lifetime challenge to tell the truth. You know, no Christian can prove what was the language of Jesus. And they believe in a character to be God whose language they don’t know. Insha’Allah. If he proves, I will give an anti proof to it.

Coming to Mohammad. I would discuss this subject under 3 headings. Again, messenger hood of Mohammad. What are those 3 headings?

• What eminent non-Muslims say about Mohammad? I said eminent non-Muslims.  I dint say any Tom, Dick and Jerry.  Eminent non-Muslims. And Jerry is not an eminent non-Muslim. What eminent non-Muslims say about Mohammad?
• Muhammad (saaw)in the house of Islam
• Muhammad (saaw) in the Bible.

First one. Lamartine was a historian from France. In the year 1854, he wrote about history: Histoire de la Turquie.

And in that book, page 273 and, 274, he says he lays three standards to judge the greatest of all human beings. He says greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results are the three criteria to judge any human genius.

 See, purpose should be great. You know, purpose wise, also Jesus Christ is smaller than Mohammad. If you read Gospel of Matthew Chapter 15 verse 26, Chapter 10, verse 5 and 6, and Matthew chapter 15, Jesus in verse 26 says, “I am not being sent, but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.

Meaning I am not for mankind. I am only for the non-gentiles. And what is a gentile and a non-gentile? Gentile is a non-Jew. One is a Jew. Jerry, according to Jesus is a gentile. And Jesus, if you read Matthew chapter15, a non-Jew, she comes to Jesus and asks for some help. So He says” it is not neat for me to cast bread to the dogs”, meaning if Jesus would have been today here, he would have called Jerry as a dog.  I don’t say that. Jesus said that to a non-Jew. He said, it is not n

eat. It is not good for me that I should give our benefits to the dogs. So Jesus’ mission was only for Bani-Israel. Mission of Mohammad. Surah 21, ayat 107 says: “we sent you not, for the entire universe as a messenger. Jesus is sent only for Bani Israel.

And Lamartine says the greatness of purpose. What is the greatness of purpose? Muhammad (saaw) said” I have come to establish Tawheed on the entire face of earth”.

And smallness of means: What were the means with Muhammad (saaw)? He was a poor person. After marrying Khadija, when he declared that “I am the messenger”, he became more poor. And this Mohammed has very smallness of means. Thirteen years he thrived in Mecca, had to migrate away. Smallness of means! Astounding results: What are the results? Jesus, before He was put on the cross according to the Bible, till He lived, He had 12 minus 1; one of them cheated. How many with Jesus? God incarnate on earth. What is the result? Only eleven! Muhammad (saaw), How many with him? More than one lakh forty thousand. Astounding results! What is the comparison between 11 and 1lakh 40 thousand?

And Insha’Allah, in my rebuttal, I will give more answers to other questions. See, if I give all of them now, Jerry will be bored in the rebuttal. Smallness of means and astounding results and greatness of purpose are 3 criteria to judge a human genius. Then who can dare compare any man in modern history with Mohammad? Who said that? Eminent non-Muslim Lamartine said that.

Encyclopedia Britannica, in the 11^th edition, it says Muhammad (saaw) was supreme most successful of all the religious people. Not me. Encyclopedia Britannica, 11^th edition. Bernard Shaw, a Christian, he says in the Genuine Islam, Vol 1, I have Studied him. Studied who? Studied Muhammad (saaw). A wonderful man, far from being antichrist. Some people call him antichrist! Far from being antichrist, I shall say he is the savior of humanity.

(Sakshi comment: Bernard Shaw-a Christian or an atheist??? Is Bro. Imran ignorant or is he intentionally deceiving people).

Michael H. Hart, an American Christian, philosopher and mathematician, he writes a book. The hundred: A ranking of the most influential person in the history. And in this book, being a Christian, he puts Jesus as no. 3 and the first number is Muhammad (saaw).

(Sakshi comment: Michael H Hart is a self-described atheist. Is Bro. Imran ignorant or is he intentionally deceiving people?)

And on page 33, published from New York Publications, 1973, he says, my choice of Mohammed in the list to lead the most ranking people, influential people of the world, may surprise many, and may be questioned by others. But there is no man in history who is more secular on religion and secular level than Muhammad (saw).

Coming to Bible, he quoted, Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7. He quoted and said about “Comforter of Truth”. Jesus said that “it is better for you that I go away, but if I don’t go away, the Comforter of Truth will not come unto you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.”So he said that Comforter of Truth cannot be Mohammad. I ask you why. What is the problem if it is Mohammad?

 So he said The God of Muhammad (saaw) and Yehovah… What is Yehovah? Yehovah is the God. Who is Yehovah? According to Christians, He is God. Did the Bible say that Yehovah is God? Did Bible say that He is God? No. See, How many times he quoted Yehovah, Yehovah, Yehovah, Yehovah. Who is this Yehovah, Yehovah, Yehovah, Yehovah? In the original, there is nothing as Yehovah. What is it? So they say it is tetragranation. You see, high vocabulary, so that common people don’t understand. Tetragranation! What is tetragranation? So they say tetragranation means a four alphabet word like YHWH. How will you pronounce this? Can anybody pronounce this? YHWH? It can’t be pronounced. It is a unique shocking word, without a vowel. YHWH. Who is the God? YHWH.

Last minute? No problem. So he said, Yehovah, the God. This Yehovah, the name that he took is a corruption of the name. He doesn’t even know the true name of the Almighty God. Encyclopedia Britannica says much before Mohammad, the Arab Jews and Christians comfortably called God Almighty as Allah and not Yehovah. Comforter of truth that he said cannot be Mohammad. See, if I would have quoted all this, he would have given all wrong explanations and wasted our time.

(Sakshi comment: It is quite funny that the Islamic preacher wants to say his arguments after Jerry’s rebuttal knowing fully that Bro. Jerry would not have time to correct him. Is Bro. Imran honest?)

So, those explanations, Insha’Allah, I will give in my rebuttal, what I have to give, Insha’Allah.

But you, before I end, I have brought 10 questions for Jerry with a lifetime challenge. He can’t answer one of them. If he answers one, he will contradict the remaining. It is a challenge to him. And if he doesn’t answer, Insha’Allah, I will answer him in rebuttal. I would like to end my talk with the ayat from Surah 3 ayat 51 where Allah says: Isa said,” Allah is My God and your God. Worship him

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