On May 10, 2008, in Hyderabad, one of the largest ever Christian Muslim debate was held. Bro. Jerry was the Christian speaker (From Sakshi: An Apologetics Network in India) and Bro. Imran (Founder President, IREF and International Islamic Scholar) was the Muslim speaker. The topic of debate was- Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad: Separating Falsehood from Truth. Following is the transcript of the presentation by Bro. Jerry Thomas (Part 2 of 2).
Point 12: Is Jesus all-knowing God? Does Jesus have future knowledge?
Remember, Jesus is both human and divine.
Bro. Imran in his book Calling to Islam, page number 319 quotes Mark 13:32 and Matthew 24:36 which says, “But that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son but the Father.”
(Sakshi comment: It is page number 391).
Based on this Br. Imran asks, if Jesus does not know something then how can he be the all-knowing God?
What Bro. Imran will not clearly tell you is that in Surah 7: 187, 79:42-45 people twice asked Muhammad sahab the same question- about the final hour and when it will be the appointed time. Two questions asked twice. And the only answer that Allah gave at that time is “I know”. And Bro. Imran will himself say I know is not an answer. If you go an examination hall and write “I know” teacher will ask you to write the answer. This is what Bro. Imran himself has put the standard.
Bro. Imran may say that in Surah 43:61, Allah said Jesus is the sign of hour. Of course, Jesus is the answer.
But, there are passages like Surah 3:140-142, where Allah clearly says he does not know who will enter the garden. Similar verses are there in Surah 5:94, Surah 11:12, Surah. 47:31, Surah. 67:2 Surah. 72:25-28 etc.
Question: Why does Allah not know certain things as mentioned in Surah 3:140-142?
Now, I said at the beginning -Jesus who is both human and divine. Now let us see how in his humanity Jesus answered this question better.
If you look at Matthew 24:1-35, there are three parts to the question. Part 1) Tell us when shall these things happen? Part 2) what shall be the sign of thy coming? Part 3) What shall be the sign of the end of the world? Last part of the question Jesus answered first- when the Gospel shall be preached to the entire world, then shall the end come.
For the second part of question Jesus give six signs, false Christ shall be preached, false prophets shall come etc.
Now to the first part of question: when shall all these things happen? Jesus answers no one knows the hour. Now, this cannot be applied to the divinity of Jesus.
Because immediately Jesus gives four examples and all the examples apply only to human beings.
Let us look at them, e.g. 1 in (Matthew 24:37-39) Jesus says during the time Noah’s flood, people did not know, e.g. 2 in (Matthew 24:43) Jesus says the house owner does not know when the thief comes, e.g. 3 in (Matthew 24; 45-51) says wicked servant does not know when master comes and e.g. 4 (Matthew 25:1-12) Jesus says, virgins does not know when the bride groom comes.
All these applies to humanity and not to divinity.
Did Jesus answer the question? Yes he answered it far far better.
Moreover if we look at Mark 2:8, John 16:30-31, John 21:17 and Revelation 2: 18, 23 we will know for certain that Jesus was all knowing in his divinity.
Point 13: Should we honor Jesus, just as a prophet or more than a prophet -equal to God?
In John 5: 23 Jesus says: “Everyone should honor the Son just as they honor The Father”.
Jesus did not say “I only need to be honored like a prophet.” He needs to be honored more than a prophet. Just as you honor the Father, you should honor Jesus.
Usually Islamic preachers quote John 16:7 and say Muhammad sahab was prophesized by Jesus. Because in John 16:14 Jesus says the one whom Jesus promised will glorify by the standards of Jesus.
ammad sahab glorify Jesus just as he glorifies God?
Therefore Muhammad sahab is NOT the one who promised by Jesus.
Point 14: Can God the Father be greater than Jesus and yet Jesus be equal to God the Father?
Jesus says yes. Bro. Imran thinks no. Bro. Imran has a question.
In his book, page 123 Bro. Imran quoted John 14:28 as a proof against the divinity of Jesus.
In John 14: 28 Jesus says "If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I am going to the Father, for my Father is GREATER THAN I".
But Bro. Imran fails to note that there can be two kinds of greatness. Greatness in nature
Greatness in rank.
Man is greater than plants and animals in nature. But Chief Minister is greater to me in rank but not in nature.
In fact in Luke 22: 27 Jesus himself says “for who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves”.
In Philippians 2:5-11, the inspired apostle says that it is God who became the servant. By quoting Isaiah 45:23 the inspired author confirms that Jesus is identical to Yahweh who became servant.
Further Jesus himself testified his exact nature identity to the Father in the very chapter Bro. Imran quoted.
In John 14:9 when the disciples asked Jesus show us the Father just as Moses asked God show me your glory (Exo 33:18), Jesus answered “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. This is a claim of exact identity to God which no mere human being can ever make.
So is Jesus who is identical God in nature? Yes.
But Jesus in humanity is lesser to the Father in rank but not nature. And that is what exactly the prophets has prophesied in Isaiah 53.
In fact, it is Bro. Imran who has a ‘greater than God’ problem in the Quran. Yehovah the holy God of Bible swears only by himself.
In Hebrews 6:16 The Holy Bible gives the principle that men swears in the name of someone greater than them
In Hebrews 6: 13 "Because God could swear by no one greater, He swore by himself. This is further confirmed in Isaiah 45: 23 and Jeremiah 22:5.
But we read in Quran more than 30 times Allah swore by different creations-
By men in Surah 37:1
By winds in Surah 51:1-4
By stars in Surah 53:1
By Pen in Surah 68:1,
By moon in (Surah 74:32-34) etc?
If we apply the principle of the Bible, shall we say that Allah is lesser than the creation?
Point 15: Did Jesus deny his divinity in Matthew 19: 16-17?
No if you read the complete passage. Yes if you read only a part and still pretend that you are an international scholar.
Bro. Imran cited Matthew 19: 16-17 in his book Calling to Islam, on page number 123 and said Jesus denied even the remotest suggestion of his divinity. Let us see.
In Matthew 19: 16-17: When a young ruler came to Jesus and addressed him as good teacher and asked lord what shall I do to have eternal life? Jesus asked him why do you call Me good? No one is good but one, that is God and commanded him to keep the commandments of God to enter eternal life. Bro. Imran stops there but the story continues. The young ruler asks which of the commandments oh lord.
Now, Ten Commandments can be divided into two. First four commandments which relates to God and the next six commandments which relates to man.
As an answer to this young ruler, Jesus says the commandments related to human beings and not the first four related to God. And the young ruler says – Master, I have kept all those but there is still something lacking in me. What shall I do?
Now instead of saying the first four commandments that is related to God, Jesus says come and follow me.
If following Jesus is equal to fulfilling the first four commandments that is related to God, then who is Jesus. Jesus is God.
Bro. Imran, this very passage notes that you must follow Jesus to have eternal life and not as you wrongly wrote in your book.
So far we have seen how the prophets
of Yehovah and their message establishes that Jesus is God. And how Muhammad sahab contradicted the earlier prophets on each of those points.
Now, let us look specifically at how the Islamic concept of revelation itself contradicts the Biblical revelation and thus focus on the messenger-hood of Muhammad saab.
In Deut 13:1-14 the Holy Bible commands me to investigate and verify any claim of messengerhood. If anyone claims to be messenger, I am commanded to investigate, then only to reject or accept the claim. Under the authority of the Bible, right now, I start investigating.
Point 1: Who is the last Prophet? LORD Jesus or Muhammad sahab?
Jesus according to the earlier prophets. Muhammad sahab according to the Quran.
According to Daniel 9: 24-26, Messiah is the seal of the prophets.
In Mark 12:1-8 Jesus says that he is the last of all the prophets.
In John 6:27 we see that the seal of the Father is on him. Any other prophet after Lord Jesus is sent by Lord Jesus to preach his Gospel.
In Matthew 23: 34 Jesus said: Therefore, I send your prophets. Who sends prophets? God or man? If God, Jesus is God.
According to Surah 33:40 Muhammad sahab is the last or seal of all Allah’s prophets. But the Bible rejects this. Hence Muhammad sahab cannot be send by the same God who sent the earlier prophets.
Point 2: Is Muhammad sahab the last messenger in the Quran?
In Surah 27:82 we read Allah shall send a beast to speak to mankind in the last day.
Ibn Kathir in his Tafisr which I have got it today says that the beast will come with the staff of Musa and the ring of Sulayman.
Now, how can Muhammad sahab be the last messenger even in Quran if the beast comes with staff of Musa and the ring of Sulayman. If the beast comes with staff of Sulayman and ring or Musa, then that beast should be the last messenger.
Point 3: Did all prophets get some diabolical inspiration?
Yes according to Surah 25:52-53, where Allah says that ALL his messengers have spoken some words of Satan thinking that it is Allah’s revelation before Allah nullified it.
(Sakshi correction: This is in Surah 22: 52-53).
Bro. Imran knows in Urdu. I have got the English version. If Bro. Imran wants to read he can read it in Sahih Bukhari Vol 1 page 103-105 about the satanic revelation.
I am not saying anything of my own. I am quoting the Islamic resources.
Further, there are other books from Islamic resources. If you want to cross-check it, you must cross-check it before you contradict it.
Now, should all the prophets speak some words of diabolical inspiration? No according to the Holy Bible.
In 2 Peter 1:21 says prophets never spoke anything in God’s name except God’s word.
All that they spoke are truth and not mixed with falsehood. If prophets themselves speak words mixed with falsehood, how will we separate falsehood from Truth?
In John 7:16 and John 12:49 Jesus says ALL His words are from God.
Therefore, Allah who sent Muhammad sahab is not the same God who sent the previous prophets.
Point 4: Will magic work on true believers?
No. True believers should defeat magic thereby showing that they do not belong to the diabolical Kingdom.
In Numbers 23:23, we read that sorcery and divination will not work against Yehovah’s servants. In (Exodus 7-12) Prophet Moses defeated magicians, which Qur’an also accepts in (Surah 7:109-126, 10:79-82, 20: 56-73).
In Mark 1: 12-28 and in Luke 4: 1-13 LORD Jesus won over the Satan and cast out demons.
Qur’an says in Surah 17:65, 38:83, 15: 39-42, that Satan has no authority on God’s true servants.
Since Qur’an agrees with this criteria, Bro. Imran can explain to me why according to BS Vol 7:658, 660, 661, Vol 9: 111, Vol 4: 490, Vol 8: 89, 400 and Tabari Vol 6, Pg 76, Vol 9:167, Muhammad sahab was under the sorcery spell.
Bro. Imran Please refute all the references I quoted with evidence, if you can.
But now let us see a few claims of Muhammad sahab and verify it.
Claim 1: Prophet Abraham prayed for him (Surah 2: 127-129)
Claim 2: Prophet Moses prophesized about him (Surah 7:157-158) and
Claim 3: LORD Jesus has prophesied for him (Surah 61:6).
Let us try to verify these claims.
Point 5: Surah 2:127-129: Prophet Abraham Prayed. But for whom?
Usually Dawah preachers use Genesis 17:18 to say that Prophet Abraham prayed for Ishmael. And that prayer has been answered through Muhammad sahab. Let us look at the prayer of Abraham and see how God answered it.
In Genesis 17: 18 Prophet Abraham prayed for his family.
In Genesis 17: 19 God very clearly told that His covenant will be established only the descendants of Isaac whom Sarah bears.
In Genesis 17:20 God says Ishmael’s blessing is twelve princes which God fulfilled in Genesis 25:12-15. Ishmael’s descendents settled in East side of Egypt comes nowhere near to Mecca .
For us to have no doubts, In Genesis 17:21, God again clearly says his covenant will be established only through descendants of Isaac.
Point 6: In Surah 7:157-158 Prophet Moses Prophesied. But about whom?
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him".
Based on Deuteronomy 18.18 Dawwah preachers claim:
The prophet was to be from among their "brethren" (i.e. Israelites), which would be referring to the Ishmaelite is fulfilled in Muahmmad sahab. Muhammad sahab spoke the words of God (i.e. The Qur’an).
But, this is true of all the Biblical prophets. Prophet Jeremiah in chapter 1:9, God said "Behold I have put my words in your mouth". Very true for Jesus. Christ spoke the words of God alone John 8:28.
Here are the similarities between Jesus and Moses:
Christ, like Moses, is the mediator of God’s covenant. (Cf. Exodus 24:4-8; Mark 14:24; 1 Cor. 11:23-25)
Christ states that Moses wrote about him. (Cf. John 5:46)
On both their births, killing of infants were carried out. (Cf. Ex. 1:15-16, 22; Mt. 2:13)
Both were rescued by divine intervention. (Cf. Ex. 2:2-10; Mt. 2:13)
Christ being the Son of God knew God the Father "face to face"- as did Moses Mt. 11:27. In Sahih Bukhari Vol 6. Num 378, Ayesha says whoever says Muhammad saw his lord is a liar.
Christ, like Moses, shone with glorious light at the Mount of Transfiguration. (Cf. Ex. 34:29; Mt. 17:2)
Christ performed greater miracles than Moses. An example would be raising the dead.
Christ, like Moses, intercedes on behalf of men. (Cf. Exodus 32:30-32; 1 Tim. 2:5)
Christ and Moses liberated their people from bondage; one from slavery, the other from sin.
Christ, like Moses, is an Israelite from the tribe of Judah. (Cf. Num. 26:59; Luke 3:22-38)
Point 7: In Surah 61:6: Did Jesus Prophesy about Muhammad sahab:
Usually Muslims quote John 14:15-17 14:25, 26. 15:26 and 16:7 where Jesus promised about a comforter.
I have already shown in the presentation that it cannot be Muhammad sahab.
However, there is anther argument the Islamic scholars bring- that word referred here is Perikletos and not parakletos.
However, all of the earlier Greek manuscripts only use only the word parakletos. So that the argument does not work here.
In the light of all these, we must ask:
Point 8: Are there any witness for Muhammad sahab’s revelation?
When God gave the revelation to Prophet Moses, many witnesses were there Exodus 19:16-20.
When Father testified about his Son in Mark 3: 17, Matthew 17:2-5, there were many witness.
(Sakshi Comment: It should be read as Matthew 3:17 and not Mark 3:17).
How many witnesses were there when Muhammad sahab received the revelation? Just give me two witnesses because that is what the Bible asks in Deuteronomy 17: 6 and 19:15.
Bro. Imran may say Quran is the final evidence for Muhammad sahab’s revelation? Is it?
In Surah 2:23 and Surah 17:88 it says Qur’an is the miracle of miracles.
The Holy Bible has already rejected eloquence as a criterion in 1 Corinthians 2:1-5.
Now even if I take it for arguments sake,
Kalidasa, the greatest Sanskrit poet was illiterate. But due to blessing of Hindu goddess Kali, he wrote not one but two epic poems Kumarasambhava and Raghuvamsha and many lyrics. And that too not in his mother tongue but in Sanskrit, a language foreign to him. At least to Muhammad sahab Arabic was the mother tongue.
In the light of all these things, we may ask:
Is Jesus God? Yes according to the Bible, Yes according to the Biblical Prophets?
Is Muhammad sahab a prophet? No according to the Bible, no according to the earlier prophets. Only Yes according to the Quran which does not have a witness. Thank you. God bless you.